Rumsfeld:Deutschland und Frankreich sind ein Problem

[streicher]

Sure, no weapon is absolutely perfect. I am sure that civilians will hide in a bomb shelter that is considered a valid military target. Civilians will be killed, and that is a simple fact of life. America will do everything possible to prevent the death of civilians, but also realizes how impossible that goal will be.

I don't believe in random. No civilian should be killed just because some global players decide.

America helped create this monster, and after 1991, it is America's responsibility to fix the problem.

Like in Herat in Afghanistan? :-> Remember the Taliban-ISI-connection. Now the next monsters rule in Herat. And is the pipeline running?

Yes, Donald Rumsfeld was correct. Germany and France are once again supporting death and torture as in the "Old Europe."

This is why I do not like state-politics. Too many lifes can be endangered so easily. Just a statement is used to path history. That should be ended.

Personally, if I was a citizen of Germany or France, I would be hiding my head in shame.

Better condemn how war is made possible. Soldiers become figures on a chessboard which can easily be sacrificed. Frontiers are there to devide men from each other.

 

[Hunble]

I don't know. probably only a few. But this few are too many for the "home of freedom and democracy".

To my knowledge, the only America who has been arrested and convicted under the Patriot Act is John Walker, who was apprehended in Afghanistan while fighting against Americans.

Perhaps one other person has been arrested under the Patriot Act who has very close ties with the 9-11 terrorist attack. Even that case is in compliance with American laws prior to the Patriot Act.

If thousands of your people are against the war, why are you so eager to fight it?

Maybe there is something more than to free the Iraq?

If I will ever meet you, I´ll spent you a beer

Well, yes there are thousands of people in America who are against the war. There are also 270 million Americans.

You understand this as well as I do. The news media will report the unusual. Man bites Dog!

I love the German people and have lived in Germany for 4 years. On this issue, you are simply wrong, even if your motivation is pure.

War is always the absolute last option. Unfortunately, sometimes fighting a war is the only way to actually save lives. With this issue, the liberation of Iraq is the moral and correct thing to do.

And if you and ever get together personally, I would love to share that beer with you.

 

[forcemagick]

Yes, America wanted revenge against Iran in the 1980s because of what Iran did to American citizens. Because of the USSR, it was not possible for America to declare war upon Iran.

what did the iran nation that the usa wanted iran to sink in a horrible war like the one the us-monster ( as you call him ) saddam brought over his and their country.

saddam fought in placehold for the usa.... but well.. what for?

 

[Hunble]

Streicher:

The United States and all NATO countries are currently in a state of war. The laws and rules change when countries are at war, for very obvious reasons.

When Islamic terrorists declared war upon America, they also declared war upon my wife and me personally. They have declared that they will do anything possible to murder both me and my wife.

Streicher, perhaps you do not fully realize the message that you are expressing when you defend the Iraq government.

By supporting the Iraq government, you are personally expressing your desire to kill me and my wife.

Perhaps you do not think that there is a very strong linkage between the Islamic terrorist and the current Iraq government.

Actually, it does not matter what you think, but when you support people who absolutely want to murder my family, you have ALSO become my enemy.

No Streicher, you and I will never share a beer together.

In the next few months, America will liberate the people of Iraq from a government that murders and tortures it's own people. It will take years, but eventually, Iraq will have a government that fully supports it's people.

Anyone that supports an evil government what desires to murder my wife or me, IS MY ENEMY.

 

[Leik]

When the liberation of the Iraq is of so much interest as you say in your postings, why did the US government wait until now? The people suffered from Saddam many years, but your government decided now, when it comes in handy to "liberate" the iraqi ppl. I do not understand that. I also do not understand why you talking about "liberating" all the time. Fact is: US government wants that oil and as it seems by any means. Do not get me wrong, I am not with Saddam, but honestly how much will US government care about the ppl when the oil is "secured"?

 

[forcemagick]

When Islamic terrorists declared war upon America, they also declared war upon my wife and me personally. They have declared that they will do anything possible to murder both me and my wife.

sorry but the iraq is not a islamic regime.. it is a fscist regime surley.. but the islamic terrorists which attacked the united states are spreaded all over the world.. the were in germany... in egypt, in the usa, in nearly every country of the world could be cells of the terror-network.

the islamic organisation called al quaida is more similiar to the taliban... they are a wahabitic organisation.. they have no interest in helping a regime like it operates in iraq... saddam would have to fear, that the quaida would try to eliminate him instead that they would realy cooperate with him.. the same can be said about iran....

it seems so typicall at this time....

the simple solutions that prevent, that someone have to think about..

"islamic terrorists attacked us" ... "islamic terrorists come from the middle east" .. "iraq is more or less in that region" .. "the iraq administration is a cruel regime" .. "they are guilty"

with the same logic you can attack the germans for example... "they are not for war against saddam" ... "they are helping our enemy" .. "we will attack as a act of selfdefense" ....

at the moment the usa seems in a kind of dangerous psychosis.... perhaps the uno should disarm the usa for a while ( surly kidding ) ....

but wait.. there would be a reason... the usa have chemical weapons.. they have biological weapons... they have nukes....

 

[Hunble]

what did the iran nation that the usa wanted iran to sink in a horrible war like the one the us-monster ( as you call him ) saddam brought over his and their country.

saddam fought in placehold for the usa.... but well.. what for?

I was a member of the U.S. Army during these years and personally knew several of the people who were killed in the failed rescue attempt.

This is not something out of a history book to me, but is still very personal.

As a direct result of America's failure to respond to Iran's hostile actions with the use of our military, the Islamic world learned a valuable lessons.

Terrorism today is a direct result of what Iran did to America in 1979. America failed to take military actions in 1979, and the thousands of civilian have died as a result.

Yes, sometimes you must go to war to actually save lives.

--------------------------

Iran hostage crisis, november 4, 1979:

After President Carter agreed to admit the shah of iran into the U.S., iranian radicals seized the U.S. embassy in tehran and took 66 American diplomats hostage. Thirteen hostages were soon released, but the remaining 53 were held until their release on January 20, 1981.

The iran hostage crisis refers to events following the seizure of the American embassy in Tehran by iranian students on Nov. 4, 1979. The overthrow of Muhammad Reza Shah Pahlevi of Iran by an Islamic revolutionary government earlier in the year had led to a steady deterioration in Iran-U.S. relations. In response to the exiled shah’s admission (Sept., 1979) to the United States for medical treatment, a crowd of about 500 seized the embassy. Of the approximately 90 people inside the embassy, 52 remained in captivity until the crisis ended, over a year later.

President Carter applied economic pressure by halting oil imports from Iran and freezing Iranian assets in the United States. At the same time, he began several diplomatic initiatives to free the hostages, all of which proved fruitless. On Apr. 24, 1980, the United States attempted a rescue mission that failed. After three of eight helicopters were damaged in a sandstorm, the operation was aborted; eight persons were killed during the evacuation. Secretary of State Cyrus Vance, who had opposed the action, resigned after the mission’s failure.

In 1980, the death of the Shah in Egypt and the invasion of Iran by Iraq made the Iranians more receptive to resolving the Hostage Crisis. In the United States, failure to resolve the Crisis contributed to Ronald Reagan’s defeat of Carter in the presidential election. After the election, with the assistance of Algerian intermediaries, successful negotiations began. On Jan. 20, 1981, the day of President Reagan’s inauguration, the United States released almost $8 billion in Iranian assets and the hostages were freed after 444 days in Iranian detention.

"Television newscasts were filled with on-the-scene pictures of the dramatic event, which was virtually unprecedented in American history. The media, by giving an extremely high level of coverage, including nightly TV 'specials' on the situation, added to the emotional response of the American people, and showed huge mobs of crazed Iranians in Tehran chanting 'Death to America, Death to Carter, Death to the Shah.' Representations of Uncle Sam and Carter were burned and numerous American flags were spat upon, trampled, and burned in the street. More importantly, American television audiences were shocked to see blindfolded members of the United States Marines embassy guard, with their hands tied behind their backs, as they were paraded before TV cameras. Everywhere, the American public demanded that the government take some sort of retaliatory action."

 

[Shiva2012]

@hunble

War is always the absolute last option.

I agree with that and i hope you are honest.
But even if I have no solution (i´m no politician, and not very well informed), I still believe that not all political solutions were considered or have taken place.
Most of the germans take care of possible victims in iraqi civillians and also in soldiers. Maybe the anti-war movement is partially used by other interests (you wrote some words to that), but the main ambitions rise from the longing for peace.

Just a small question beside :
Can you tell me what´s the sense of being member of the UN, if the members don´t act on their decisions ?

 

[forcemagick]

well it must be surley hard for the 66 hostages... no doubt it is a crime..

but is that a reason for helping saddam at a war that kills millions of people?

is that a reason for creating such a monster like saddam with all that bioweapons and all that other shit?

 

[Agarthe]

Yes, Donald Rumsfeld was correct. Germany and France are once again supporting death and torture as in the "Old Europe."

There you are!!! I thought of you when I read this nonsense horrified by the American understanding of European history. Thank you so much for explaining to us what Rumsfeld actually wanted to point out. This completely fits to your comment about us being a prior target to Islamic states due to historical reasons...

Sure, one is never wrong to warm up the Nazi stuff but do YOU dare to reproach the French revolution to the French? Any idea when that took place? I just don't want to know how much more the US Americans would have messed up in their past if it would have been founded earlier.

Out of interest: concerning the number of demonstrators in Washington how many were there according to your news? It is the speech of half a million here. And let me tell you this: I am incredibly proud of those people!!

If you love us so much, Hunble, than stop generalizing. I would not go and have a beer with you, other Germans on this board would. I would go have a beer with some other Americans. See the difference? I am afraid not.


Byeeeeeeee,
Agarthe

 

[Hunble]

When the liberation of the Iraq is of so much interest as you say in your postings, why did the US government wait until now? The people suffered from Saddam many years, but your government decided now, when it comes in handy to "liberate" the iraqi ppl. I do not understand that. I also do not understand why you talking about "liberating" all the time. Fact is: US government wants that oil and as it seems by any means. Do not get me wrong, I am not with Saddam, but honestly how much will US government care about the ppl when the oil is "secured"?

1) During the Gulf War in 1991, Americans did want to liberate the people of Iraq. The United Nations only authorized removing the Iraq military from Kuwait, and once that goal was achieved, the war ended. To continue moving into Iraq in 1991 would have been in violation of the United Nations.

2) After 1991, the Iraq government has continued to violate the terms that ended the war. When they attacked citizens in both the North and South of Iraq, the United Nations created the "No Fly Zones" to prevent the Iraq military from bombing their own people.

3) In 1998, Iraq forced the United Nations weapons inspectors out of the country. In violation of the United Nations, President Clinton order the American military into the region in preparation for a possible war. The bombings in Iraq and Baghdad from the U.S. Air Force soon started.

4) After the bombing started in 1998, Iraq soon agreed to obey rules of the United Nations. America halted their attacks upon Iraq and peace was resumed.

5) Today, Iraq is once again in violation of the United Nations resolutions and we are in a state of war. For 12 years, Iraq has been given every chance to comply and maintain the peace.

Perhaps I do not know how it works in Germany, but when criminals continue to break the law in America, they are arrested and put in jail.

The nation of Iraq is a little different, but the same concept does apply. The current government of Iraq is in violation of international laws and the individual people responsible must be held accountable for their actions.

Once the criminal government of Iraq is removed from power, the people of Iraq will be liberated and granted freedom. Perhaps the first time in recent history that a country in the Middle East will no longer live in constant fear of death and torture.

 

[Hunble]

[quote="Shiva2012
Just a small question beside :
Can you tell me what´s the sense of being member of the UN, if the members don´t act on their decisions ?
[/quote]

If the countries no longer follow the rules of the United Nations or NATO charters, then those organizations have become useless.

America should remove all troops from Europe and pull out of both the UN and NATO.

 

[forcemagick]

Thanks God America and others countries will put a stop to this and liberate the people of Iraq.

Personally, if I was a citizen of Germany or France, I would be hiding my head in shame.

sorry.... i am a citizen of germany and i don`t like our goverment and our system...

but at the moment i am happy that our good old schrödi ( well i don`t like him most the time.. ) has said was he has said.

well there is no reason to hide my head in shame... but there is a reason for raising the fist against us-administrations ignorance and arrogance...

well...

i would drink my beer with michael moore and the many americans who belive that they have a bundle of stupid white men sitting at the administrative positions ... ( i don`t know much about rice... but i think powel is the only man in your goverment which could be called a politican ... it is ok if somenone says " the germans should wait what will be found in iraq " but what comes from rumsfeld and bush is .... well i don`t know how to call it... i could laugh about if it wouldn`t be so deadly for so many people)

 

[forcemagick]

[quote="Shiva2012
Just a small question beside :
Can you tell me what´s the sense of being member of the UN, if the members don´t act on their decisions ?

If the countries no longer follow the rules of the United Nations or NATO charters, then those organizations have become useless.

America should remove all troops from Europe and pull out of both the UN and NATO.[/quote]

if the other nations no longer follow the rules of the united states?

i think the charters are clear... there must be a reason...

well i would be happy if the us-troops would leave us alone...

we would have some economical problems.. but we would also be very consequent if we would call you to leave our countries with your troops

 

[Hunble]

Sure, one is never wrong to warm up the Nazi stuff but do YOU dare to reproach the French revolution to the French? Any idea when that took place? I just don't want to know how much more the US Americans would have messed up in their past if it would have been founded earlier.

Out of interest: concerning the number of demonstrators in Washington how many were there according to your news? It is the speech of half a million here. And let me tell you this: I am incredibly proud of those people!!

First off, I never use the Nazi stuff against the German people. I have lived in the country and absolutely know that aspect is no longer part of the German mentality. If you thought I implied that, then I absolutely apologize since I know better.

On the subject of the French Revolution:

I love to study history and have been specializing in that subject for the last few months. The American support of the French Revolutions is perhaps one of the most shameful things my country has ever done.

Today, I read an average of 2 books a week, as I study each and every major person involved with American history between 1776 and 1800.

Why, when the French were murdering their own people, did Americans like James Madison and Thomas Jefferson support such a vile thing? I am studying everything that I can find to get inside of their minds and understand why.

I can understand why they did not like the British after the American Revolution, but their blind loyalty to France was disgusting.

 

[Hunble]

[if the other nations no longer follow the rules of the united states?

Ok, which one of us should post the actual United Nations and NATO charters?

It would be interesting to actually read the exact words as we talk about this subject.

As I see it, France and Germany are in violation of both of those charters.

If possible, could you post the exact words of the charters in both English and German?

At least you are smarter than me and understand both languages. I am at a disadvantage in that respect.

 

[Hunble]

well i would be happy if the us-troops would leave us alone...

we would have some economical problems.. but we would also be very consequent if we would call you to leave our countries with your troops

On this issue we are in full agreement. The U.S. military should be removed from England and Germany and deployed to other areas that are more important in today's world.

Half should be stationed in Bulgaria and the other half in Poland.

 

[ilek]

die amerikanische regierung strahlt Zuversicht aus, dass in irak massenv.w. im Inspektionpapier am kommenden Montag stehen wird. Ich
fand es nämlich komisch, dass der amerik. außenminister c.p. meinte, die europäer sollten nicht so voreilig mit ihrer meinung sein und den waffenbericht abwarten. diese aussage indiziert doch, dass die amis etwas wissen, was der rest der welt nicht weiss. wie schwer könnte es denn sein, dass cia diese waffen in iraq unterbringt und wie schwer ist es , einige un-ispektoren mit saftigem gehalt zu schmieren???

 

[Bundeskanzler]

After the liberation of Iraq, the people of the country will have their natural freedoms, such as life and liberty restored to them. No longer will they live each day in absolute fear of torture.

Oh, a new reason!

The reason for the planned war is not to destroy weapons of mass destruction or to disarm the Iraq or to steal Iraq's Oil but to free the people of the Iraq?

Thank you for this enlightenment, honey!

Personally, if I was a citizen of Germany or France, I would be hiding my head in shame.

Personally, if I was a citizen of USA or GB, I would learn French or German that nobody can notice that I am American or British.

 

[forcemagick]

german
http://www.uno.de/charta/charta.htm

english
http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/

The Purposes of the United Nations are:

To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;

To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion; and

To be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations in the attainment of these common ends.

the first who cried for war was the us president... the iraq did not cried for a real war.. ( you know iraqy propaganda..... a madman cries out his madness... an other thing are concrete preparations of war... or concrete attacks...)